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Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:04 pm
by OnkaBob

Would be interested to see if you have any voids to the extent shown in my thread on Plywood Quality in the Misc forum. Any chance of you doing the "floodlight x-ray" thing on some of your hulls and posting pics of anything noticeable? (Better to put any replies in that other thread rather than hijacking this one any more).

I figure if you have the same kind of voids I have and your boats have lasted this long then I would have nothing to worry about (except that I use lighter glass than you do).


Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:15 pm
by Oldsparkey

I have had voids , areas where the wood did not stick to the glue when they made the panels and all sorts of other things.
The voids were filled with epoxy , the missing strips or splinters of wood that were gone were filled with a epoxy and wood flour mix ... all the rest , again epoxy and if needed epoxy and wood flour.

I am sure i missed some voids but I do epoxy saturate the wood with no less then two coats of epoxy before glassing it so I guess you might call those voids I missed ... Flotation , if they are not full of the epoxy saturation.

I have weird thoughts about the boats we make , They are not really wood boats , they are a wood cored fiberglass boats. Real wood boats do not have any epoxy or fiberglass on them. Anyway the wood boats I had as a kid were nothing but wood , not like the ones I make today with the glass encapsulation for my fun and the others who have them.



Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:23 pm
by jem
If you're paying $85 per sheet for Okoume, you're paying WAY too much.


Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:01 pm
by OnkaBob
Oldsparkey wrote: They are not really wood boats , they are a wood cored fiberglass boats. Real wood boats do not have any epoxy or fiberglass on them.
I'm with you up to a certain point but I think it's a case of how much glass vs how much wood and ultimately they are composites - not one or the other. A 6oz layer of glass each side of 3mm ply is possibly more glass than wood and if the wood were dissolved out it may still function. My Laker is 3.6mm ply with 2oz glass and if the glass was not there it would still definitely function but be more prone to damage. Taking your stand to the extreme we could say that a painted boat is a "wood cored paint boat" - and that just ain't right 'cos if you took the wood out of that it would definitely not function :!:

Anyhow, for now I'll stick with my term "natural core composite" 8).


Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:21 pm
by hairymick
Chuck mate,

I agree with you. All of my first boats were made with what was marketed here as "blonde" ply, these included Swampgirl, wadefish, P5 pirogue, Southwind and finally my Laker.

I built my Laker with the ply that I had rejected to the other builds and it was very ordinary - to say the least. This "blond" ply was thinner than what is now sold here as Luann and much more difficult to work with, but with patience and care, very good boats could be made from it. At the time, i think my blond stuff cost me about 12 bucks a shet while Gaboon/Okoume BS1088 in 4mm cost the princely sum of about 20 bucks.

Now, things are much different, Gaboon/Okoume is allmost unavailable here at any price and I wish I had bought a thousand sheets of it a couple of years ago.

It has been replaced with something the sellers are marketing as Pacific Maple BS1088 and comes from some sort of tree in SE Asia. The grain is tighter and more uniform than Gaboon and the ply is about 2.5 kilograms per sheet heavier. It sells for about $50.0 per sheet and while it is very good ply, I like neither the appearance of it in the finished product, the weight and of course, the price.

3.6mm Luann here sells for around 16 bucks a sheet. I have detected no voids in the couple of sheets I have and it has a wavy woord grain similar to gaboon. It weighs about the same as this Pac Maple.

I have saved the very best of my Gabbon for a very special kayak that I will be starting soon for Robin. Once that ply is gone, I will be reverting to Luann, confident in the knowledge that it will still build fine, durable boats that with proper care and maintenance will out last my grand children. :D

Oh yeah, If I could still get Gaboon at a reasonable price, for sure, I would choose it, simply because it is lighter, prettier and easier to work with. I can't so I won't fret too much over it. Just get on with buiding them using something else. 8)


Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:04 pm
by Oldsparkey

The Okoume plywood, an African mahogany can be bought here in the states from a boat kit company at $69.00 a sheet for the 4 mm thickness , a 4 x 8 sheet , then I have to pay postage to get it which increases the cost per sheet.
That is one reason all the pre cut kits are a little high on there cost. Give someone marine grade plywood with the boat kit and the cost is passed on the the consumer , as it should and is expected to be. I have two boats made from it , both kit boats , one from Matt a canoe and one from a different manufacture , a kayak.

All the rest of the boats I have made , which are quite a few , were made from plans and I secured the wood , locally , to made them from. It was 4 x 8 sheets of Luann and they ran me $10.00 a sheet. YES... I did make a mistake on cutting out some panels on one of the boats and had to go and get another 4 x 8 sheet of the Luann , I would of been hoping mad if it was the Okoume plywood that I mis-measured on and cut up.

Anyway the ones I made from the locally located wood are just as nice looking , float and folks think I have a bundle of money in them which I don't. The Okoume plywood is easier to work with ( Less splinters and voids ) but a person is hard pressed to tell it from the Luann boats when they are placed side by side. Usually the figure the Luann boat costs more. :lol: :roll:

The above statement is from a simple minded , southern cracker that thinks wood is wood , nothing more , nothing less and does not want to distract/ deviate from Matts suggestion on what is the better wood to make his boats with. He is the designer of the boats and knows what works the best for that design , I don't. It is always best to follow the boat designers suggestions.



Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:18 pm
by jem
I'm investigating an option that might solve several issues:

-Quality ply
-Ideal for kits or building yourself.

It's a long shot but might work.


Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:07 pm
by Kayak Jack
You gonna make plywood in your back yard, Matt? Any relief we can get will be welcome.


Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:43 pm
by jem
Looking into how much I'd have to buy at once to get a significant discount.

Also, there's something I can do with the panel layout to make shipping kits much easier and more cost effective.


Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:43 pm
by Kayak Jack
Very good news! Thanks.