to popsicle stick, or not to popsicle stick?

LEE SCHNEIDERMANN · Post by **LEE SCHNEIDERMANN** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:47 pm

Well it didn't take long did it?
I'm seeing conflicting evidence ON THIS VERY WEBSITE!! (hard to believe after the thinning replies!)

I'm leaning toward using spacers between my panels during the "dookie schmutz"* portion of assembly.
However, I'm seeing pictoral evidence that not everyone does this.
What gives?,and why or why not use the spacers?
Any and all responses are (as always) welcomed!

Lee

*dookie schmutz was an expression used on another website to describe the wood flour and epoxy concoction used for fillets. I liked the description, so I've stolen....I mean borrowed it.

lark2004 · Post by **lark2004** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:07 am

wouldn't happen to be the same term that Wimperdink was using over on BBO was it?

LEE SCHNEIDERMANN · Post by **LEE SCHNEIDERMANN** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:45 am

not sure who that is or what bbo is??

Kayak Jack · Post by **Kayak Jack** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:50 am

Spacers seems to be more a matter of personal taste than anything else. Some very good builders favor it. Also, some very good builders don't.

I'm a mediocre builder and I choose to not use spacers. My reasoning runs like this. If it is a good idea along the SIDES of panels, then why not on the ENDS of panels? When we do a butt joint of a scarf joint, I don't see any spacers.

But, as I said, come very good builders choose to use them.

hairymick · Post by **hairymick** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:01 am

G'day Lee,

That is a very good question.

There has been considerable debate in various forums about this. I have been a fairly staunch advocate of the spacer method. Matt recommended it and that was good enough for me.

There are pretty solid arguments for both methods.

As I understnd things, the spacer method eliminates the likelyhood of a wood on wood join. The spacers also make for easier work in aligning panels that are not quite timmed perfectly.

Using the no spacer method requires more care in cutting and trimming the panels and their is more trouble in getting the corners of the ply panels to sit exactly on the corresponding corner.

I have experimented with the no spacer method for my wifes boat, partly because I am really trying to keep it as light as I can. The no spacer method requires lees wood flour, hence less weight.

The other reason is that Chuck has done it this way and I wanted to see if I could too.

Now that I have tried both methods, I think that I like the no spacer method better but it not something I would agonise over.

First build? I would recommend you build the way the instructions say. Further down the track, have a play with other ideas and then do what suits you best.

Post by **jem** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:01 am

It's an option in the build instructions. I suppose I need to make that clearer in the instructions that it is not a requirement.

surfman · Post by **surfman** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:18 am

The only reason I can see for using the spacers is the obvious one, they help maintain an even gap for the glue filler. With out the spacers there is no guarantee that you will get glue into all the joints either, if there is a spot where the wood is touching it will be susceptible to not getting filled in. IMO. I wouldn't build without them. To me it makes the job of filling easier too since you don’t have to fiddle with a spot that might be touching to ensure glue penetration.

Post by **jem** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:28 am

To add to that, one could argue that even if were wood on wood contact, epoxy would surround that spot.

However, if the wood gets to shifting about after a few years of hard use, it could cause some wear.

COULD (maybe) cause, after YEARS of HARD use. Or if you made some boo boos while building. You still have the fiberglass holding it in place which is very, very strong. It's a worse case scenario and likely not to happen.

So you could argue from both sides. That's why I consider it a 50/50 option and to be decided by builder preference. That's the beauty of building your own!

hoz · Post by **hoz** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:43 am

Whether to use spacers is entirely up to the builder. Some do, I haven't yet.

Wood on wood contact? Wow, theres enough epoxy in the fillet and the tape coverings it to hold an elephant, certainly for the lifetime of the canoe or 'yak.

The only plus I can see is spacers can help in the alignment of the panels, trying to maintain a straight and fair looking chine.

surfman · Post by **surfman** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:01 am

There is a lot of fillet in joints with large angles but, on the canoe I built for example the bottom two panels were almost flat and there was very little fillet, almost a butt joint. Neither the fillet nor the glue in the joint is providing any real strength there, it is the glass that is laid on top that carries all the strength but, I still wouldn't want a void in the joint and with the spacers I am sure there isn't. Plus the joint is even. They do help with aligning panels as well, by manipulating the spacer you could easily adjust the alignment of the edges of the panels. I found this very helpful once I got the panels all tied together.