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 Post subject: SS&G questions
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:26 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:28 pm
Posts: 34
Location: NC, USA
My daughter and I are going to be building a Buccaneer. We ordered the plans, intending to build it out of the cheap 1/4" luan plywood available at Lowes. But, before we managed to get started, my father-in-law has offered me a LOT of 10' cedar planks that he decided he will never use.

Now I am thinking we have the makings of a really special SS&G boat, given that the boards came from trees that were planted by my father-in-law when he was a kid. Who else has made a cedar boat with their dad, out of trees planted by their grandfather?

From what I have been reading, it looks like the easiest thing to do would be to make some templates out of the cheap luan (I purchased the full size paper patterns, so that part's going to be pretty easy), glue the strips to match the template as close as possible, and then use a router with a trim bit match the pieces to the templates.

I have a router, I have a router table, but I have never used a trim bit:
- What's the best way to keep the template attached to the piece I am trimming?
- Do I want my router on fast or slow speed?
- Anything else should keep in mind? (aside from "keep body parts away from spinning bit")

Any advice would be appreciated!

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Chris
Trapper 15-35
SS&G Buccaneer


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 Post subject: Re: SS&G questions
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:21 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2004 8:14 pm
Posts: 4855
Location: Greensboro, NC
Can't offer much on the router but be sure you assemble a full length panel from the lesser plywood. Then use that as your template. Stagger butt joints in the strips.

You will certainly have a one-of-a-kinda boat.

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 Post subject: Re: SS&G questions
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:12 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 8:40 pm
Posts: 23
I do all my boats with a router.
Let me explain how I do it. I take 1/2" MDF and lay my parts out on that just like it were the plywood I would use for the boat.

Then I use 1/2"x 3/4" clear pine stock to "spring a batten" along a line. I nail it with an air brad gun. Take a jig saw and cut 1/4-3/8 inch away to get rid of alot of the excess. Chuck up a 1/2" shank TOP BEARING trim bit in a full sized router not mounted in a table. The batten will be what the bearing rolls against. The router base plate will be riding on top of the batten. When you do that line, the batten pulls right off by hand. Pull your brads out of that batten so you can use it again. Move to the next line and spring the batten again and repeat.

This obviously is time consuming. I do only the long paneled hull parts and the stations and we're talking about a days extra work but you wind up with a perfect template. As perfect and accurate as your measuring is.

Now to use that pattern on a typical 4mm plywood I would drop down to a 1/4" shank BOTTOM BEARING trim bit chucked up in a small hand held trim router. One made to operate single hand. Like one of these. http://www.finehomebuilding.com/video/t ... rview.aspx
Of course you could use a full sized router as well.

I cut the material an inch or so larger than the template. Just a rough cut.
I use either a 3/4 or 1/2" wide 3M double sided tape like you see in a office supply store. Usually comes in a 30 yard roll. It's about like scotch tapein thickness. I pretty much put it along the perimeter of my template. Press my boat wood to it and zip the part out real quick with a trim router. This part goes as quick as you can lay tape literally.

To me, it makes all the difference in the world when you start stitching. You are mimicking what a CNC will do with about the same degree of accuracy. It's just the longer and cheaper way of getting there.

The template, I coat in some poly and crate up for storage. I may or may not revisit it at some point or I may loan it to someone with a set of plans.
But on any of these plans, if you make a template and would like to build another hull. Pay Matt for the license and you can literally have a hull zipped out as fast as you can apply doubled sided tape. Hull panels in an hour or less. Perfect hull panels no less.

This is not the only way to accomplish the making of the template. This is how I do it and like to do it after trying several different paths to get to the same point. Basically, if you own a router, you need two different bits, so it's also cost effective. I chose to add a trim router to my stable when I started doing this. I chose the Bosch and haven't regretted that purchase EVER. For actually cutting the part out....it's real quick and one handed operation. http://www.cpotools.com/factory-recondi ... gQoduUwAtg Typically a brand new Bosch is in the 100 dollar range at the box stores. Lowes and Home Depot which is where I bought mine.

Routing the MDF you definitely want a full sized router and use the 1/2 inch shank bit. A 1/4" bit would chatter under that kind of load leaving chatter marks in your template you would have to sand off.

As far as router speed. That is determined by the material you are routing. Easiest way is to try different speeds on some scrap.
I use a router all that I can in my shop. They have many uses besides cutting an ogee profile on a piece of shelving board.


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 Post subject: Re: SS&G questions
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:51 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:10 pm
Posts: 10
Location: Texas and Kansas
Mark,
Thanks for posting your template/router technique in detail. Your post was a great help to me as I’m just starting my first SS&G.
I had already started my templates in Luann and can see how MDF would better.

My question is how do you keep the two pieces of the full size template in place (proper alignment)? I was going to splice them together with an overlay like a butt joint maybe with small bolts or screws. Also thought about positioning the two pieces with the QA 2 drawing and fastening the template to the table to hold it in place. Thanks again for clearing up some template/router questions I’ve been contemplating.

Andy

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 Post subject: Re: SS&G questions
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:28 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:01 am
Posts: 464
Location: Portland, Oregon
oldbuffpilot wrote:
Mark,
Thanks for posting your template/router technique in detail. Your post was a great help to me as I’m just starting my first SS&G.
I had already started my templates in Luann and can see how MDF would better.

My question is how do you keep the two pieces of the full size template in place (proper alignment)? I was going to splice them together with an overlay like a butt joint maybe with small bolts or screws. Also thought about positioning the two pieces with the QA 2 drawing and fastening the template to the table to hold it in place. Thanks again for clearing up some template/router questions I’ve been contemplating.

Andy


When I have built mine, I used oriented strand board - due to its price - for the templates. I butt-jointed them just like the plans called for making sure to use the QA measurements, then screwed them to a long 2 X 4 to hold the proper shape. I strip out the rough shape of the template, remove this "rough" strip panel and run it through the planer to smooth it out and remove the excess glue. Afterwards I apply fiber class cloth to the side that will be the interior, and upon curing, I reattach it to the template. Then, I use the flush cut bit to trim the panel to size. On the first boat I built with panels of strips, sometimes the router would cause strips to split along the edge, particularly at the pointy end of a panel. This is why I started glassing the interior of the panels. Also, I find the interior to be a pain to glass, this way I only need to glass with 4 inch strips over the interior joints. Also, if you start with 1/4 inch strips and plane the panels down to 3/16 of an inch, you just dropped the weight of the wood in your boat 25 %. :)

Actually, during the construction of the Pirogue-T I built using the strip panel method in 2008, I used Luaun ply as the templates, but it did not give much of an edge for the router blade bearing to ride on which is why I have since used 7/16 inch OSB.

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Craig
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If I had more clamps, I could build more boats.
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 Post subject: Re: SS&G questions
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:57 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 8:40 pm
Posts: 23
Andy I build on a table about counter top height. Actually it's 2- 8' long tables that can be fastened end to end. Framed in 2x4 and covered with 1/2 plywood.
It comes in handy numerous times during a build. If I need to hold a template or put in a supporting block I just screw it directly to the table.

If I need to pull a string to line up the two panels I just drive a screw in one end of the table down on the side and do the same on the other end of the table and pull the string from screw to screw.
It beats the heck out of working on the floor.
At the end of a project I just sand down my table top to get rid of the epoxy drops and roll on a couple more coats of poly or either pull the tables apart and store.

Maybe this spring I'll build a new table I came across this table is 2 sections that are 2x8 feet which when bolted together make a 4x8. I'll be making mine to bolt together for a 2x16 foot table.

The Paulk work bench. He is on Facebook as well as Youtube. A career trim and cabinet carpenter that has come up with an ingenious work bench.


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 Post subject: Re: SS&G questions
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:28 pm
Posts: 34
Location: NC, USA
Thanks for the replies!

Mark, I really like your idea on how to use the pine when making the pattern, I bet that makes a real smooth line! And while it takes some time, it's probably not that much longer than using my belt sander to smooth out the cuts.

craiggamesh, thanks for explaining the benefits of the thinker pattern, makes a lot of sense. I've only used my router to round out my canoe paddle handles, so I'll need my trimming to be as easy as possible.

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Chris
Trapper 15-35
SS&G Buccaneer


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 Post subject: Re: SS&G questions
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:42 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:28 pm
Posts: 34
Location: NC, USA
So I've made some progress, and wanted to lame a few comments:

1. using OSB for the patterns is a MUCH better option than the cheap 1/4 inch plywood I was going to use ... Yea, I WISH I had the money to use MDF, I wouldn't have nearly as many splinters in my hands, but MDF is more than 3 times the cost of OSB, which is just about the same cost as the 1/4" plywood, so OSB it is!

2. Using the batten to make smooth corners is a great idea! I actually had a few curves that were too tight to use this technique, and I had to use a belt sander. The belt sander takes longer, and isn't as precise. GOOD CALL!

3. Cutting out enough strips is a general pain in the butt, more of a pain than driving 120 miles away to buy some Okume plywood? Maybe, but the cedar was free! And looks really nice when glued together. So far i only have 3 small panels together, but i think it is worth it.

4. I thought I would try, on a very small panel, to trim it to the pattern, without fiberglassing one side. I got about halfway through before it broke to pieces on me. I didn't want to fiberglass, because I was afraid I would dull my bit, but I can buy several bits for the cost savings in plywood.

Thanks for all the help guys!

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Chris
Trapper 15-35
SS&G Buccaneer


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 Post subject: Re: SS&G questions
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:05 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:48 pm
Posts: 988
Location: Tx
I have built several boats and not had any panels come apart just with glue.
What kind of glue are you using and are you letting it cure before cutting?
I never put glass on my panels until the are assembled into a hull.
Ron


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 Post subject: Re: SS&G questions
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:10 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:28 pm
Posts: 34
Location: NC, USA
I'm using Franklin Titebond III, and the panel is braking on the wood, not on the glue joints.

I'm sure it has something to do with how I am using the router, maybe I've left much extra wood on the panels to trim off?

Tips, tricks and helpful hits are of course, always appreciated!

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Chris
Trapper 15-35
SS&G Buccaneer


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